You simply are not a serious person, just a believer in conspiracy theories. the idea that the IDF deliberately killed its own citizens is utterly grotesque and offensive.
If you think gay people are safe in either the West Bank or Gaza, then you really do need your head examined and I feel truly sorry for you.
Friendly fire sadly often occurs, but jumping from the existence of a probe into reports of a handful of friendly fire deaths (which is still open) to "most of the people killed on 10/7 were IDF friendly fire", or even "the IDF deliberately killed Israeli civilians", as many pro-Palestine activists do, is incredibly dishonest. This isn't a sounding board to spread conspiracy theories, folks can do that on their own pages.
The pro Hamas crowd either says Israel deserved it or Hamas had a picnic in Gaza and Israel killed its own. It’s kinda confusing. Whatever they need to do to shill for terrorists.
I have noticed that over the past six or so years, the far left has sort of internalized "the narcissist's prayer" as their go-to response to all things inconvenient: "that didn't happen, but if it did, you deserved it."
Israel cut of the water supply and electricity to the civilian population of Gaza, which is a war crime.
The Israel president Herzog told that every Palestinian citizen, even children, was responsible for the actions of Hamas and should pay the price (which is??).
The casualty numbers are lopsided because the IDF was telling citizens to move to the South of Gaza and then started to bomb the South of Gaza.
One Israeli minister even said he wanted all Palestinians out of Gaza, which indicates ethnic cleansing.
It not surprising that the International Court of Justice in The Hague is hearing the complaints made by South Africa, where South Africa accuses the state of Israel of genocidal acts.
War crimes are being committed by the IDF, in response to the terrible war crimes Hamas has committed on October 7, by killing almost 1,200 Israeli citizens. But I am also stating that the IDF is willfully targeting the civilian population of Gaza, that the Israeli government wants to eradicate the Palestinian (civil) population from Gaza (by the words of president Herzog and the Israeli defense minister), which constitutes at least the intent to commit genocide.
I would push back a touch on the "any war crime" part. War crimes are bad. I've been through a few classes on when you can shoot children in war, and it isn't super pleasant.
Way back in my student years I did a presentation about how we should classify genocide like we do murder: manslaughter, first degree, second degree, etc. I think that would be an overall better system because the word "genocide" has such as weight to it that it becomes a detriment to addressing the problem.
It's a basic category error. Genocide is a kind of war crime, but that doesn't mean any war crime is genocide. I'm sure there's a name for that fallacy but it eludes me at the moment. (Goes without saying that war crimes are bad.) We obviously need better ways to talk about civilian deaths in war, I agree.
It is a a highly 'motivated' - not innocent - fallacy by people who want to exonerate every action of Hamas as legitimate resistance and demonise any response whatever (short presumably of abject surrender) by Israeli.
Jamie, thanks for doing the heavy lifting on this topic, this is a terrific summation of the way this is being addressed in public. I scrolled into your reddit post then came here and subscribed.
Overall, I just don't know how I feel, honestly. I saw a dead little girl the same age as mine with the same shirt mine has. If that was me? I would kill everything in every direction. I wouldn't care if I died in the process.
It feels like The Troubles in Ireland. It's just bad all around.
I'm sure many Palestinians feel that way. And I'm sure many Israelis did as well on October 7th. The prospect of longstanding peace has never seemed more remote, and that's saying something.
I don't really like to defer to someone like Jon Stewart, but I kindof agree a bit with the segment he did recently on the conflict. It reminds me of the kinds of things people like Sam Harris were saying 20 years ago when Iraq was on fire.
Part of the burden here falls on the Muslim world in general. We're both yanks from the other side of the world and so our opinions don't necessarily resonate in a way that matters. Good on Qatar for stepping up and trying to mediate the situation, but where the hell are the Saudis? Syria is still on fire, and Lebanon is imploding economically. But where is Egypt? You guys are the voices that will be heard.
There are no "Israeli settlers" in Gaza. The IDF is a professional force and does not attach civilian targets for their own sake. It is well known that Hamas initiated this war, routinely lie, and deliberately put their military operatives and infrastructure among civilians. There would be no current war in Gaza if Hamas hadn't started it it by the indiscriminate massacre and torture of Israelis (and others). All the civilian deaths are their responsibility.
This is unhinged bollocks Russell. The majority of Jewish civilians were not killed by friendly fire. Where do you get this stuff? Were women raped or not? Non combatants killed in cold blood, not as a by product of attacking Israeli military posts. Civilians were most certainly abducted and most certainly ARE being used as hostages, which is a war crime. I think you know all this, and are desperately trying to convince yourself. Do you think that no German citizens whatever should have died in World War 2? And if not, why not?
I'm a gay man. I could live in Israel - I certainly couldn't in either of the Palestinian governed areas. Hamas hold progressives like you in total contempt. At least I am clear who my enemies are!
You simply are not a serious person, just a believer in conspiracy theories. the idea that the IDF deliberately killed its own citizens is utterly grotesque and offensive.
If you think gay people are safe in either the West Bank or Gaza, then you really do need your head examined and I feel truly sorry for you.
Not a serious person if the Israeli government is looking into it?
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-02-06/israeli-military-opens-probe-into-reports-of-oct-7-friendly-fire-deaths
Friendly fire sadly often occurs, but jumping from the existence of a probe into reports of a handful of friendly fire deaths (which is still open) to "most of the people killed on 10/7 were IDF friendly fire", or even "the IDF deliberately killed Israeli civilians", as many pro-Palestine activists do, is incredibly dishonest. This isn't a sounding board to spread conspiracy theories, folks can do that on their own pages.
The pro Hamas crowd either says Israel deserved it or Hamas had a picnic in Gaza and Israel killed its own. It’s kinda confusing. Whatever they need to do to shill for terrorists.
I have noticed that over the past six or so years, the far left has sort of internalized "the narcissist's prayer" as their go-to response to all things inconvenient: "that didn't happen, but if it did, you deserved it."
You are so right on this!
You are forgetting at least two things.
Israel cut of the water supply and electricity to the civilian population of Gaza, which is a war crime.
The Israel president Herzog told that every Palestinian citizen, even children, was responsible for the actions of Hamas and should pay the price (which is??).
The casualty numbers are lopsided because the IDF was telling citizens to move to the South of Gaza and then started to bomb the South of Gaza.
One Israeli minister even said he wanted all Palestinians out of Gaza, which indicates ethnic cleansing.
It not surprising that the International Court of Justice in The Hague is hearing the complaints made by South Africa, where South Africa accuses the state of Israel of genocidal acts.
War crimes are being committed by the IDF, in response to the terrible war crimes Hamas has committed on October 7, by killing almost 1,200 Israeli citizens. But I am also stating that the IDF is willfully targeting the civilian population of Gaza, that the Israeli government wants to eradicate the Palestinian (civil) population from Gaza (by the words of president Herzog and the Israeli defense minister), which constitutes at least the intent to commit genocide.
Really just go whine to Sinwar. If he’s still alive that is.
I would push back a touch on the "any war crime" part. War crimes are bad. I've been through a few classes on when you can shoot children in war, and it isn't super pleasant.
Way back in my student years I did a presentation about how we should classify genocide like we do murder: manslaughter, first degree, second degree, etc. I think that would be an overall better system because the word "genocide" has such as weight to it that it becomes a detriment to addressing the problem.
It's a basic category error. Genocide is a kind of war crime, but that doesn't mean any war crime is genocide. I'm sure there's a name for that fallacy but it eludes me at the moment. (Goes without saying that war crimes are bad.) We obviously need better ways to talk about civilian deaths in war, I agree.
It is a a highly 'motivated' - not innocent - fallacy by people who want to exonerate every action of Hamas as legitimate resistance and demonise any response whatever (short presumably of abject surrender) by Israeli.
Equivocation maybe?
Jamie, thanks for doing the heavy lifting on this topic, this is a terrific summation of the way this is being addressed in public. I scrolled into your reddit post then came here and subscribed.
I'm glad you found it useful. :)
I asked ChatGPT, which tells me it's the "fallacy of composition." Seems to check out. Equivocation fits as well.
Overall, I just don't know how I feel, honestly. I saw a dead little girl the same age as mine with the same shirt mine has. If that was me? I would kill everything in every direction. I wouldn't care if I died in the process.
It feels like The Troubles in Ireland. It's just bad all around.
I'm sure many Palestinians feel that way. And I'm sure many Israelis did as well on October 7th. The prospect of longstanding peace has never seemed more remote, and that's saying something.
I don't really like to defer to someone like Jon Stewart, but I kindof agree a bit with the segment he did recently on the conflict. It reminds me of the kinds of things people like Sam Harris were saying 20 years ago when Iraq was on fire.
Part of the burden here falls on the Muslim world in general. We're both yanks from the other side of the world and so our opinions don't necessarily resonate in a way that matters. Good on Qatar for stepping up and trying to mediate the situation, but where the hell are the Saudis? Syria is still on fire, and Lebanon is imploding economically. But where is Egypt? You guys are the voices that will be heard.
There are no "Israeli settlers" in Gaza. The IDF is a professional force and does not attach civilian targets for their own sake. It is well known that Hamas initiated this war, routinely lie, and deliberately put their military operatives and infrastructure among civilians. There would be no current war in Gaza if Hamas hadn't started it it by the indiscriminate massacre and torture of Israelis (and others). All the civilian deaths are their responsibility.
This is unhinged bollocks Russell. The majority of Jewish civilians were not killed by friendly fire. Where do you get this stuff? Were women raped or not? Non combatants killed in cold blood, not as a by product of attacking Israeli military posts. Civilians were most certainly abducted and most certainly ARE being used as hostages, which is a war crime. I think you know all this, and are desperately trying to convince yourself. Do you think that no German citizens whatever should have died in World War 2? And if not, why not?
I'm a gay man. I could live in Israel - I certainly couldn't in either of the Palestinian governed areas. Hamas hold progressives like you in total contempt. At least I am clear who my enemies are!